Transcript

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Welcome to Hospitality On The Rise, the podcast about the people shaping the hospitality industry and their journeys. I'm your host, Alice Cheng, founder and CEO of Culinary Agents, hospitality's go-to hiring platform. And I'm here to give you your dose of virtual mentorship.

Here, we'll be sharing the stories, lessons learned, and advice from hospitality leaders who've carved out their own path to success. After all, this industry is where many get their start and go on to do incredible things.

Whether you're a pro, starting out, or just love the hustle, this podcast highlights what makes hospitality extraordinary, the people.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

We're so excited to have Erling Wu-Bower with us today. Chef Partner Underscore Hospitality with the restaurant Maxwells Trading, which we'll hear more about. Partner at Ripe Fruit, which is a hospitality consulting and innovation firm. 2025 JBFA semifinalist with Chris Jung - Best Chef: Great Lakes - Maxwells Trading. And three-time JBFA finalist. So, Erling, thank you for joining us today.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Very welcome. It's an honor and a pleasure to be here.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, and I have had the pleasure of knowing you for many, many years, and I have been fortunate to dine at many of the places that you have been at the helm of. But curious, how did it all begin? How did you get started?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I mean, I kind of was cooking out of the womb. My mom was a food writer. My dad's a food-loving Cajun. We're the kind of family that starts talking about dinner, tomorrow's dinner at breakfast. It's just food was always what coursed through my blood. I never really thought–outside of wanting to be a firefighter and an astronaut at a young age–I never thought about doing anything else, and that's kind how I got on this path. Got a job immediately after college and just line cooked my way to where I am now.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG 

Great, great. Well, you make it sound so easy. When you were cooking at the time, did you already know “This is what I'm doing. This is going to be my profession, my career”?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I think that's a good question. I didn't really have a plan immediately after college. I wasn't sure that it was going to be in my career, but I was certainly going to give it a shot. My parents were super supportive. And in a city like Chicago, where it's easy to find roommates, where it's easy to find jobs at various different restaurants that can really feed your culinary needs, and your culinary educational needs, I found it very easy and I also just love the lifestyle. So you know, after about five years of being into it yeah I decided that this was a path that I was going to stay on.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Great, great. And at that point, were you like, “Okay, I'm going to stay in Chicago. I'm gonna…” You had spent quite some time working with One Off Hospitality Group and some of their restaurants. Like how did you think through, like, “What is the next step? Now I know I wanna do this and I know I don't wanna just do it half ass. How do I get this done?”

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I'm not a big planner. I'm not a big planner at all. I more just kind of reacted to what was around me. I never had a plan like “In five years I want to open a restaurant, in another five years I want to own a restaurant.” I just kept working with incredible ingredients on a regular basis, and my passion was completely fed by that. As I kept being inspired by ingredients, right, and stayed at restaurants that I really liked, I found that I also kind of started elevating on the chef ladder, right? It was just a matter of me doing what I really loved. 

And it's kind of progressed to a point where I became a chef de cuisine, and at that point I just continued to work on and hone my craft, right? At that point when you become a chef de cuisine, it becomes a question of management. The food is the easy part, and I honed that craft and then just kind of kept climbing in one company. I think the unique thing about my story is that I worked with one company and then partnered with one company for I think 14 years.

So there was never like, “I need to jump from place to place.” You had asked a question about, you know, leaving Chicago. Like I had never, I had never even thought about leaving Chicago. My roots are so deep here. I love the city so much that I was completely committed to the city. And I was very happy with the company that I was working with because my passion was fed, right? I was happy. I was compensated in all the ways that I needed to be, right? Compensation not just being money but just, you know, lifestyle.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, and kudos to them being, I would say that's an employer brand that a lot of people strive for, right? Retention and recognizing the passion, dedication, and talent, and then growing that individual or those individuals, either with them or beyond their group. So take me to when you finally… How did you know you were ready for your own project?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I think the theme of this podcast might kind of be, I think that time chooses you. You don't necessarily always choose the time thus far. I knew I was ready because there were some partners around me. Most notably, still my business partner today, Josh Tilden, who was just ready to go. And we always talked about new restaurant concepts and numbers, and the man's obsessed with spreadsheets. And we would just kind of apply thoughts to performance, right? And then as we did that enough and enough and enough, we were just like, “Okay, I think it's time. I think it's time to do something on our own or with a partnership.” And we ended up partnering with One Off at Pacific Standard Time, which was the restaurant directly preceding Maxwells. So that's how I knew it was time.

I don't necessarily think that I was like, “Okay, I'm ready to be a restaurateur.” It just seemed to be… I kind of like, after a while, just know that I need to make a move, right? It's usually about three, four years when I feel like I've done what I needed to do. And I try to grow up high rather than just change locations, right? Like how can we stay where we are, but also do a little bit more? And I think that's how I got there.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, yeah, it's great. And I like asking that question because one of the common threads that we hear from leaders is patience. Right? You know, and sometimes people feel like they're ready for something, but they're really not. And that kind of goes in a two-way with mentors and mentees, etc. So I always find it interesting how people know when the time is ready. And sometimes it's just you feel it. You've reached a point where you've learned what you wanted to learn or you've met the right people. And the timing just seems right. And sometimes it's just an impatience that drives people to do things, and that may or may not work out for them. 

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Yeah, I think that like–just to comment on that if you don't mind–like sometimes the time chooses you and it takes a long time, and sometimes it moves really fast, right? Like sometimes opportunity presents itself and you have to take it, and sometimes you just kind of have to stay put. If you force opportunity, that's when I feel like you make bad decisions. Because you read into it, you read into a situation, something that's not there because you'd want it so bad. And I've done both, right? I've forced poorly and I've been patient, but you know, people always say, “Man, you're so young.” I'm like, “I've been doing this for 17 years. Like it's not… You know, it took me 17 years to get to here. So sure, thank you for saying that. I'm glad that you think I look young, but it's been a road,” you know?

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, and you're just getting started. I mean, it's a...

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Sounds stressful.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

I mean, so, okay. So now you had your first project and now you're on your next project, right? You've had some projects in between then. Maxwells Trading was a different kind of project, right? Because, it's, I don't want to say it's one that's, that's done on your own. You know, you have your partners, etc., but, tell us a little bit about some of the differences, as you were planning and building Maxwells, that you learned.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Yeah, there is no “on my own.” If I was on my own, I would be, you know, drowning in a ditch somewhere without Josh. Josh is my light and my guide. The differences with Maxwells is simply that it is Underscore’s project solo. We certainly have investors and very valuable voices that help guide us, but like it is an Underscore project. And not only is it an Underscore project, but it's in a new neighborhood for restaurants in Chicago. That was certainly a risk. 

My investor's name is Tracy Boychuk. She's a friend and investor and I got to know her because she started doing the flowers at Pacific Standard Time. And she was like, “Well, when do you want me to come to do the flowers? So I don't make a mess. When I make a mess, your customers won't see it.” And I was just like, “I actually just want you to make a mess in the middle of lunchtime as if it was a flower studio.” And I think at that point she kind of realized that we might have some sort of symbiosis. Then when I was looking in the neighborhood that I wanted to go and I would just throw in ear–what are these called? Headphones, earpods? I don't know, I'm old. And just drive around Chicago and I kind of zeroed in the neighborhood that I loved and realized that Tracy had a headquarters here. And we just kind of started looking together. And so that's kind of how the neighborhood and the relationship kind of started, the real-estate relationship. And then the building that we're in now as Maxwells is actually that headquarters that I just mentioned. We kind of siphoned all the way back to the building. 

I think the most unique thing about Maxwells, and it's ironic, is that I finally just built a restaurant for myself. Like the two customers that we imagined when we built this restaurant were Josh and I. Josh and I wanted to build a restaurant where we could come and sit at a bar, sit at our bar, listen to our records and drink martinis. And it was flippant and it was trite. But what it really did was, if you're your own customer, you were going to design a restaurant that you want to be in. If you want to be at a restaurant, you're going to be there. Right? And then that type of want really breeds a great relationship between you and your restaurant, right? 

Like I've had relationships with restaurants in the past that were slightly adversarial, not because of who was in them, but because of just like, maybe the food didn't exactly look the way you wanted to, or maybe the customers were asking for something that was kind of outside of what you had initially thought about the restaurant. At this restaurant, it kind of made it impossible because the customer was me. So I think the really cool thing about that is like, I want to be here and I'm always in the dining room, like tinkering with various things and just kind of making it exactly what I'm looking for it to be. And in a lot of other restaurants, you just reach a point of like, “Well, I don't really understand what I want it to be. It's kind of taken on a life of its own.” Does that make sense? I wasn't making any sense.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, absolutely. That's why I'm just letting you talk. I’m like, okay. And I don't want to skirt around the fact that–and correct me if I'm wrong–this is the first project where you kind of shifted your focus from back-of-house to front-of-house in the sense of where you're spending more of your time. Is that correct? 

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I don't wear an apron. I don't wear an apron. I don't wear a chef's coat. 

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

And that's change for you, yes?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

It's a huge change. I'm a chef by trade.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG 

Do you twitch when you see something, and you want to jump back there?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER 

No, I wanna give everybody credit. I mean, I think the most credit goes to the executive chef here at Maxwells, Chris Jung. The fact that I'm not as involved on a night-to-night basis in the kitchen, he runs the kitchen. He's the executive chef, there's a credit to him. I think if he were on this podcast, he would also probably be like, “I wish Erling would get out of my hair.” It's a bummer for him that there's somebody–not a bummer, it's great for the restaurant. I know what kitchen excuses are, I know what kitchen operations are, and I can see through a lot of the operational deficiencies that we might have. So that's a little bit of a bummer for him because I'm just going to be able to say what's what. 

I'm very involved in the creative process. Chris and I like to say that the food here at Maxwells is basically the product of an argument between us. That's our creative process, right? And it actually like… certainly we're like brothers. He's very much like I was 10 years ago, and I love it. And I'm trying to manage the relationship the way I wanted it to be managed when I was going through it. And I think sometimes I succeed and sometimes I don't, but like we bring our collaborative nature to the table. And like, I think the food that you see is largely a result of two chefs who have similar but differing visions, like putting stuff together. So the food's a conversation between Chris and I, and it works out really, really well.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

What would you say is the biggest challenge with the transition for you personally going from… transitioning into back to front essentially, even though you're still heavily involved?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I mean, this is an industry leaning podcast, right?

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yes.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I mean, customers are the biggest change, right? And I love, obviously I love customers. That's why we do this. I don't, you know… When you're in the kitchen, to speak frankly, you know the habits of your cooks, right? You know what they might do after their shifts. You know what you're gonna get the next day. And if you don't know what you're gonna get, you can predict what you're gonna get, right? Like the spectrum of predictability is pretty small.

It's not with customers. You have no idea what you're going to get. You have no idea who's going to walk in your door. You don't know if people are going to walk in your door. And that variability is wildly different from the variability that you get in the kitchen. I was always a front of the house-leaning chef. I always thought that I understood the massive impact and value of service. I would say that even though I considered myself a front of the house-leaning chef, I underestimated the integral nature and the value of service. And that has been eye opening and mind blowing for me to watch the challenges. 

There's challenges every day. The main challenge is like a customer who you don't know, like a customer who you can't make happy and that's just…. I'm not blaming the customer. It's just something that I hadn't experienced before. I’m very challenged by a customer that I can't make happy, and I really want to try as hard as I can to make them happy, but sometimes they're just people that you can't make happy. That's different, right? The relationship is not an employment relationship like it is in the kitchen. You have a cook that you can't make happy, like you're their boss. That's not the case with a customer. So that is the biggest change. It's a welcome challenge and I think that having chefs experience and then switching–I don't think I've switched to the front of the house, right? Like I'm some sort of hybrid, but quote-unquote “switching to the front of the house” really puts a new perspective in both places. It puts a new perspective on the front of the house floor,. I know what the kitchen is up against to get the food out, but also the opposite, right? I can tell the kitchen what they need to do with even more experience because ultimately we're here to make the guest happy.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, so you can just go jump and expedite, whenever you want, right?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I mean, I don't think they like it.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Well, you know, and that's part of ownership, that's part of being a leader, it's part of, like you said, your learning, right? If you look at one of the things that Culinary Agents recently did was just take a look at our data around skills and skills requirements. And we found that the number one skill that people are looking for for back of house is communication. And that was interesting. Like everything else is table stakes, but communications was something that people were really looking for. And oftentimes when you think about somebody who is either starting out and has dreams to opening and running their own place, or just wants to be a leader in the industry or leader in general, sometimes it gets cloudy and the unknowns of what they need to do to get there. Right? So, you know, what are the skills would you say that are the most important that you would tell somebody, “Hey, if your goal is to”, “If you are a chef trained and that's where you spent most of your time in the back of house, and your goal is to own and operate your own place one day and eventually get to a point where you're not the one day-to-day in the back cooking,” right? What would you say are your top three skills that somebody should definitely focus on if that was their goal?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Identifying talent. I think that's the most important one. Identify talent and then hold on for dear life. Identify talent and then truly invest in those talented individuals. Do not over-inflate your own value in those situations, and invest in those that can help you get to where you want to get. I think that's the most important one. Communication is super important. 

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

And you need to know how to cook.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Of course you need to know how to cook. But actually, I mean, I'm going to say it as the third one, but it's third, right? Like I don't think communication is the word I would use. Like it's management. I frequently talk to my managers and say like, “We actually have to manage our way out of the situation. We're not going to spend our way out of the situation. We're not going to hire our way out of the situation. It's not going to be magic. We actually have to manage.” Right? So like you have to throw stuff against the wall and see if it sticks. You have to sit down and have difficult conversations with individuals. 

And that craft, the craft of actually managing people is fucking hard. Right? And like some people have a gift for it. Some people don't have a gift for it. I've seen many people who didn't have the gift for it get really good at it. So like the willingness to manage people. The great chefs are managers. They're not cooks. Right? The great, great chefs are both. So yeah, I would say identifying talent, figuring out management. And then, yeah, you got to be able to cook. You got to be able to cook consistently. But it's actually third in line for me at my restaurants, right? Like I can get you to a good cook. The other two, identification of talent and management, I can actually also get you there, but they're more value to me for a chef.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, yeah, I love it. So, and as you're looking at other projects, so let's talk a little bit about, you know, you have your big project–or I should say, I'll just call it Maxwells because all your projects are big–and you're working on several other things. What's next? How do you split your time? What are you focusing on? What are things that we should be looking out for that's coming down the pipe… that you can share?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I'm always looking. I think… What’s the phrase that I have to use right now? We're being patiently aggressive…

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

I like that.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

…in our search, but growth is the goal. It's not a goal in and of itself which is an important point to make right, like growth for itself ends up being pretty ugly. We just have, you know… People are just like, “Well, why do you want to do it?” I'm like, “I just have more to say,” right? Like there's other ideas that I want to express. There's more people that I want to feed. There's more cool places. 

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, I mean, you're only 17 years in, right? So you got, like, another at least 35, right?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Right. Exactly. So yeah, there's definitely more ideas out there, and I wouldn't be surprised if they happened quote-unquote “soon.” I also wouldn't be surprised if they didn't happen soon. You know–I forgot what I had said earlier–sometimes these opportunities come at you really quick, right? And in multiples. Sometimes you just have to be patient and say, “You know, this might not be the time. I'm pushing too hard. I'm making situations that are mediocre look good in my head, and it's dangerous.”

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, and it sounds like be prepared either way, right? 

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Yeah.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Because you never know, and you need to have gone through that thought process and the different scenarios so that you can make the right decisions when that opportunity arises. I think that's also really….

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Yeah, and like, I think that one of the things–I'm sorry to interrupt.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

No, no, no, go ahead. This is about you. I'm just here to like, you know, fill in the blanks.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I think one of the things that… Josh and I, Josh lives in Atlanta, which actually makes the operation stronger. 

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

I didn't know that actually.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Yeah. He's a partner who just is the cold, calculated, like he'll say, “Man, labor was way too high last night.” I’m like, “Well, you weren't here.” He's like, “Honestly, like it's, it's not my job. It's my job to tell you that. And then you deal with it or don't deal with it.” But like, I love just having somebody who's just like, based on what you see on the software, saying how it should have been. I love being held to account. 

One of the things that we do with the point that I was going to make is like, we're consistently talking about possibilities. The possibilities of this lease happening, this lease happening, the possibilities of various different investment and money structures working. I think Josh and I probably talk an hour a day. And I think if you listen to a lot of it, a lot of it might sound BS-y, but what it allows us to do is when a situation does arise, we've already talked through it. And we might not have identified what the answer would be, but it's like, this situation did present itself. We've done the work in our heads of what it's here. So now it's like we know the data, right? We know the risks, make a decision, right? So we don't have to waste time. That said, there's a billion combinations of how these things come to you. Like one of the reasons we talk so much is we want to be prepared for those opportunities when they arise.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, you know, I love that. I think that can be applied to so many different things. I mean, it's like planning, strategizing. Sometimes it unlocks creative juices, etc. But all roads lead back to being prepared, right? Because you don't know what's going to happen, and you don't want to squander a potential opportunity that brings itself. And you also want to make sure you're on the same page with the people you're working with. We also do that in different forms on our day-to-day as well. All these skills that can be skills and scenarios that can be applied to restaurants and any other things, right?

So with all these different things going on and with your key folks also remote, which sometimes is good, sometimes can present some different challenges. How do you keep everything balanced? I mean, sounds like…

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

What is balance?

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Explain your version of…

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I mean, the answer is I don't. My life is the first scene of Home Alone. You know, like the house in Home Alone, when everybody's just pure and utter chaos. Like, that's life. I mean, I get asked this question rather often, and my answer is like, my life isn't actually balanced. And that's okay. I think there's just like this search for trigger words for me. “Work-life balance.” It's defined by the individual, right?

My work in my life by most metrics aren't balanced, but I find joy in it. And at the beginning of this call, you saw my four year old running around and you know, it's just, that's fine. Like he's here in the restaurant. He sees the fact that I'm doing a podcast. My nine year old, he knows the ins and outs of this restaurant and the little secret rooms and passageways better than anybody. And I love that. Like I love the fact that it's kind of a family place. 

How do I find balance? I think I focus on intensity of time, not amount of time. I try to focus on being effective as a dad, as a partner–as a life partner, also as a business partner. When you're in those moments, be in those moments and give them as much as you can. Try not to be distracted. When you have a moment, it's okay. This is something that I've just recently worked on. It's okay not to be busy. And it's okay to scroll Instagram for 15 minutes to 30 minutes, if we're being honest, and just let your brain turn off. Should you go to the gym instead? Sure. But it's also okay if you just veg out for 15 minutes. Take the time. Don't make yourself feel bad about it. And just admit the fact that you're doing it. How do I keep my life balanced? I don't. My life is not balanced. 

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

But it works.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

But like, I've gotten used to what my life is. In fact, I'm trying to make it more unbalanced.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

I love it. I know I asked that question oftentimes during these sessions. I actually know the answer I'm going to get back. And I still love hearing everyone's iteration, which is also very similar to each other. But that's, you know, I think in this industry in general, balance is what works for you. It just happens to be a word that means something that means something else to somebody else. But yes, I and I think a lot of people are on this constant quest of figuring out how to just satisfy all the buckets. But I love that, like when you're in the moment, just be in that moment because focus is more important than spreading thin, I should say.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

So to make it clear, I agree with everything you just said, and I want to further it by saying certain generations that were born after us focus on want and desire as the motivation for balance. That's not what I'm saying. There's plenty of times when I come to work that I don't want to come to work.

The key is not like I'm doing what I want. The key is I'm fulfilling my responsibilities. Do you know what I mean? 

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

100%.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Some people are like, “Well, I just really don't want to. I really want to work two days a week.” It's like, well, that's OK. You still have to do the basics, you know?

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, there is this unspoken but spoken, I would say if we're talking about… because in hospitality, in restaurants specifically, and in a lot of these types of businesses, you are dealing with generational diversity on a regular basis. You might have some folks–

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

“Generational diversity.” That’s a new one for me, I like this.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah, okay. I'm going to send you a bill for that.

You know, you can have somebody who is just starting out in the work world, and you can have somebody who's been doing it for 16, 17, 18 years, etc. And they need to complete service together. They need to work side by side. And they have different styles of communication, different everything, right? Different wants, etc.

I think that's also interesting in the world of being a leader is you have to kind of understand and manage and navigate that as well. But you're absolutely right. There's a difference between work-life balance. And I think that's why so many people shy away from that phrase where it's like more of a “5 p.m., I'm going to go have my life and I've already worked. I don’t want to do this. I don't want to work today because I don't feel like it. So that's my balance” versus, you know, you have responsibilities and it's more managing your time so that you complete your responsibilities, and you have time to do things that you would want to do or rather do or do things for yourself or that you need to do otherwise. Right? So absolutely. I mean, I'll put that little phrase in the controversial bucket of… It depends. Think about generational diversity when you're talking to your teams about that. And it absolutely is something that is a real thing that people have to deal with. And depending on who they're talking to, it means different things.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I couldn't agree more. And one of the things that I'm beginning to realize is that generational diversity is real, right? Like we talk about it. Now listen to me, I'm talking about it like I know about it.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

it just rolled off your tongue. That was great.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I do understand that different generations are different, but the emotion– I do tend to feel that there's an underlying emotion that's a common human emotion, right? And so like when I hear, what do the kids say? They say they want to be seen and heard, right? Like I take that and at first I react adversely because I'm like, what does this exactly mean? But I get it. Just like “hear me out,” right? “Listen to me.” “Tell me that I have value”, right? “Reassure me,” right? And then can we go on doing our jobs, right? So what I'm trying to do is just like, I'm trying to be a translator when it comes to generational, I have to be, right?

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Yeah. Well, it goes back to what you said about the skill of managing, right? Those are people, emotions, and they really want those things. And to them, the definition is the separation, right? And to others, it's how do I efficiently and effectively complete my responsibilities so that I have enough time to do other things, whether or not those other things are for personal pleasure or just responsibilities that you have in other places, right? You have families, you have other things you need to do.

Well, we can probably have a whole podcast about controversial work-life balance, but we are coming up to the lightning round. So what advice would you tell your younger self?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Man. I think I was complacent. I think I could have been more aggressive. I think I could have had a little bit more faith in myself. So there were a couple of moments when I could have been just like, it's time to do this on your own. And I decided not to. I don't regret those moments though. But if I could do it again, I think I could be a little bit more aggressive.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

What's your advice for someone struggling in the industry?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

I mean if you're struggling in the industry, ask yourself if you really want to do it, right? I don't think this is an industry that you should stay in if you don't love it Right? So ask yourself first if it's the industry that's causing you not to like it, or if it's you that's causing it not to like it. If it's you, give it a shot. If it's the industry get out because this industry takes no prisoners. It doesn't. And it's a place where, to be frank, you don't make that much money. So if it's not making you incredibly happy, look somewhere else. Because you don't want to be the 40, the 42 year old that is jaded and unhappy in this industry. And I see it a lot. That was dark. I'm sorry.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

It was very real. I mean, it's an industry that definitely passion is a driver. You have to love it. And oftentimes when people are struggling, and they take a step back and see what they're struggling with, if it's the industry, then, you know, the industry is not changing. It evolves, but it is what it is. Right? And people love it for it. And that's where a lot of the passion and drive come from. So no, it was not dark.

What's your advice for fellow hospitality leaders?

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Eat at your own restaurants. Like sit down at a table and actually have the experience. I can't stress that enough. To chefs and managers. I'm a chef by trade. Here's why you do it as a chef. As a chef, if you eat one bite of one dish and you say it's good or it's not good, you have had a completely different experience than your customer is going to have, who's sitting down, who's having multiple dishes and beverages with the server. You have no idea how that one bite plays in the actual arena that is going to play in. Managers too, right? Like we see employees from a professional management side, right? You need to see them from a customer side. That employee that you might… you just like, you can't figure an employee you can't figure out. Right? That employee might be magic table-side. You don't know. Sit down at your restaurants and eat. Anyway.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Great. I love it. that note, Erling, thank you so much for taking time. I know you got a lot of things to do. It's really nice to see you and I can't wait to see what else you've got cooking. Like literally and figuratively.

 

GUEST: ERLING WU-BOWER

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure and an honor to be with you.

 

HOST: ALICE CHENG

Remember, success looks different for everyone in hospitality. No two paths are the same. If you have a leader or a topic you want to hear about, email [email protected].

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